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RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Horshamite — Sat, 31 May 2008 22:19:47 GMT

Thanks. I should have read it all the way through!

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

DotNetWebs — Sat, 31 May 2008 18:56:48 GMT

It used to be 2 1/2 hours if you spent £10.

Here is the old sign I posted earlier in this thread:

[img]http://www.horshamforum.com/Uploads/Images/77828d80-dde3-47bb-a753-4587.JPG[/img]

It also used to be free all day Sunday!

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Horshamite — Sat, 31 May 2008 18:46:36 GMT

Can anyone confirm that the free parking period has been reduced? Currently it is 30 mins free for anybody and 2 hours free if you spend £10 plus in Sainsburys. Has it changed since the store opened? I know the minimum purchase has risen but has the free time actually been reduced?

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

AndyH — Thu, 22 May 2008 13:02:26 GMT

I found this article in the Telegraph the other day. Personally I think resorting to criminal damage is a bit over the top, but if you are a loyal customer you would like to think that a store would treat you as such.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1990545/Man-held-by-police-over-andpound5-parking-ticket.html

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

DotNetWebs — Sun, 23 Mar 2008 11:42:17 GMT

Hello TheCorm thank you for registering and welcome to the forums.

I agree that the Sainsbury's staff should not be the target of people frustrations over the parking situation. I don't think that Euro Car Parks are doing Sainsbury's any favours though. As has been pointed out the new tickets do not have the time printed on them and the 'free' period has been reduced from 2 1/2 to 2 hours. This is bound to result in people unexpectedly having to pay for their parking regardless of how much they may have spent shopping in Sainsbury's. I notice that Sainsbury's have also introduced parking fees for Sunday's despite the fact the parking in Horsham is free elsewhere.

The other thing I find inconvenient is that there is no way to validate your own car parking ticket if you use the self-service check outs. Surely it would be a relatively simple technical solution to have the check out machine validate the car park ticket once the shopping had been paid for?

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

TheCorm — Sat, 22 Mar 2008 23:00:29 GMT

As has been pointed out worthwhile mentioning again that the car park is not run by Sainsbury's but by Euro Car Parks so it's their policies that are in force, so I would implore all to not go shouting at the poor Sainsbury's staff, the connection with Sainsbury's is that for all their customers they basically pay the partking costs for you for a parking time of up to 2 hours.

This is plenty of time for even a big shop I feel, if you are taking longer than this then damn...you need to be faster and spend less of your valuable time in a supermarket! Obviously older folk and those with disabilities can take longer.....but even they shouldn't be getting on for 3 hours.

The car park, even though convenient is also not a car park for those wishing to visit the town centre. If you can do your shopping and visit the town all within the 2 hour slot then fair enough, but I have heard tale after tale from Sainsbury's employees of people going into town for hours and then complaining that they can't be let out.....some people have said they have only been in 90 mins but their ticket is showing on a computer system as being issued 4 and half hours earlier.

The white line thing is ridiculous and I would go mental (at the euro car park employee issuing the ticket....never a Sainsbury's employee or manager but I might let them know what has happend) if it happened to me....but the time thing is very clearly marked and I have no issue with remembering one time in my head....surely most people can?

ps: Hello!

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

getaway — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:41:05 GMT

As expected, I have heard nothing on either of these to 'offences'

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

getaway — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 17:30:28 GMT

I'm starting a collection - got my second EuroCarParks PCN yesterday at the same place, which I will be ignoring of course...

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

DotNetWebs — Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:00:06 GMT

Hi good luck with this.

Please let us know how you get on. This forum gets a lot of searches from people in similar situations wanting to know what to do. I am sure your case will interest a lot of people!

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

getaway — Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:00:28 GMT

I'm putting my money where my mouth is - currently in possession of a £30 Euro Car Parks Parking Charge Notice (not Penalty Charge Notice) for parking on a pavement at Princess Royal Hospital in Bromley (no parking spaces and the pavement is about 3 cars wide so not getting in anyone's way) - obviously I shall be ignoring it. There are no signs saying you agree to pay the charge etc. if you don’t display a ticket.

The ticket is quite amusing in itself. The blue chequered design to make it look like the police insignia, and the wording “Unauthorised removal or interference is prohibited” (not an ‘offence’ as on a proper PCN), prohibited by whom exactly?! – and isn’t impersonating the police illegal??

“Your details may be passed to a third party authorised by Euro Car Parks for the collection of unpaid parking charge notice fees and administration fee will be added”

Sounds as though they’re trying to make out you will have the bailiffs round.

At best I think this is sharp practice, I wonder what Trading Standards think about it?

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

DotNetWebs — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 11:05:00 GMT

[quote][b]getaway (07/01/2008)[/b][hr]That certainly sounds legally reasonable, but I think it would be virtually impossible to prove that you agreed to an implied contract, and I would gamble on them not taking court action. If they thought they stood a good chance they'd take every instance to court.

I occasionally do work for one of the firms that run a lot of hospital car parks and one of their managers just about admitted as much that they don't take any action if a PCN isn't paid. Definitely worth the gamble not paying I reckon![/quote]

Details of successful court action by car park companies are certainly hard to find. There are some interesting stories on this forum which may be of use to anybody else considering what action to take on receiving a PCN:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

getaway — Mon, 07 Jan 2008 17:41:49 GMT

That certainly sounds legally reasonable, but I think it would be virtually impossible to prove that you agreed to an implied contract, and I would gamble on them not taking court action. If they thought they stood a good chance they'd take every instance to court.

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

DotNetWebs — Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:14:01 GMT

[quote][b]getaway (05/01/2008)[/b][hr]

I case anyone else is caught with this, here is the legal standpoint:

A private company cannot fine you, only the police or a local authority can do this. They can obviously clamp you as long as the appropriate warnings are displayed, but if not…

The best advice is to ignore any ticket issued by a private company, and that goes for parking anywhere.

All the parking company can do is pay the DVLA to get your name & address then take you to court for ‘loss of revenue’. Since this will only be a few pounds at most they are not going to do it.

I’ve had first hand experience of this when I received a ticket for £80 at a private car park about six months ago. I found the above information, ignored the ticket and heard nothing more.

So, in a privately operated car park, if there’s no clamping signs or barriers then it’s free parking![/quote]

Hi getaway Welcome to the forums

You are correct that a private company has no power to ‘fine’ you.

I am no expert on these matters but I was fortunate enough to have been helped in this case by somebody who is very experienced in this field including managing private car parks for large companies similar to Sainsbury’s. This person has also attended many court cases involved with parking charge notices.

As I understand it the legal situation for private car parks is something like this:

By entering the car park and taking a ticket you are agreeing to a ‘contract’ between you and the car park operator. The rules of that ‘contract’ should be clearly displayed at the entrance to the car park. These rules allow the car park operator to ‘invoice’ you a fixed sum if you breach them. The ‘invoice’ usually takes the form of a Parking Charge Notice PCN.

If the car park operator decides to try and enforce the PCN they must first contact DVLA and pay fee for your name and address. Once they have this information they will send you an intimidating letter that implies you are about to be taken to court. This letter is simply intended to scare you into paying the PCN. I am told that in the industry money collected at this stage is know as “Bluff Money”.

If the PCN remains unpaid many will be quietly dropped but occasionally some will be taken to court. If it goes to court the onus is on the car park operator to prove that first you agreed with the contact, then you infringed the contract, and indeed that it was actually you (the registered keeper) who was driving the vehicle.

The letter that was drafted on my behalf pointed out a large number of weaknesses in any potential case that could be brought against me. The most obvious being that (at the time) the car park rules did note state that cars had to be parked entirely within a marked bay.

Clearly in this case the car park operator did not think it was a case that they could win and decided not to pursue it. I am sure that many other PCNs would not stand up in court.

I think you have to be a little careful though before deciding to ignore a PCN. If you are unlucky enough to be one of the people that are pursued, and the case does stand up in court, you could have costs awarded against you. Your credit record may also be affected.

I think if you receive a PCN you need to weigh up the chances of it being enforced against the likely consequences of a case going against you.

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

getaway — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 19:49:14 GMT

I case anyone else is caught with this, here is the legal standpoint:

A private company cannot fine you, only the police or a local authority can do this. They can obviously clamp you as long as the appropriate warnings are displayed, but if not…

The best advice is to ignore any ticket issued by a private company, and that goes for parking anywhere.

All the parking company can do is pay the DVLA to get your name & address then take you to court for ‘loss of revenue’. Since this will only be a few pounds at most they are not going to do it.

I’ve had first hand experience of this when I received a ticket for £80 at a private car park about six months ago. I found the above information, ignored the ticket and heard nothing more.

So, in a privately operated car park, if there’s no clamping signs or barriers then it’s free parking!

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Phil — Mon, 02 Jul 2007 20:06:09 GMT

I was at Sainsburys today and took a pic of the new policy *see attached*

So free parking has been reduced by half an hour...

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Mon, 25 Jun 2007 07:14:39 GMT

You are right about the time not being printed on the card. The reason for this is that the card are re-used. I guess they could flash the time up on the 'take the card' screen on entry and rely on your memory.

Another issue is that you get your card validated at the checkout then go for a coffee and miss your 20 minute exit time. Easily resolved if Customer Services can revalidate the card.

I have used it a couple of times and it works for me - and the staff seem polite. I guess any new scheme is going to have issues which should be dealt with fairly. In the end Sainsburys are only making sure that it is their shoppers that benefit from 'free' parking. I emphasise the 'free' because the maintenance / value of the land etc has to be paid out of the shop's profit

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

AndyH — Sun, 24 Jun 2007 23:16:07 GMT

I went to Sainsbury's last Friday and found that the new barrier system is now up and running. The first thing that I noticed was, you now get a plastic card not a paper ticket. The BIG difference is there is no time of entry printed on it. This is going to be a good money generator for the car park operator, aswell as for Sainsbury's.

Think about it, if you don't know when you arrived, you won't know exactly when you need to leave by. You therefore stray past the free 30 minutes and have to either pay the fixed car parking charge or go into the store and spend at least £10. Heads they win, tails you loose!

I also noticed that there are a lot of signs around the car park full of rules and regulations. Could this be related to the farce that DNW was dragged through that started this thread.....?

Supermarket car parks........I have had enough of them in the last week to last me a lifetime!:angry:

My advice, stick to The Forum or Swan Walk. At least you know exactly what you will be charged.(and it's cheaper than Crawley:))

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Ernie — Mon, 21 May 2007 08:33:48 GMT

Its not just the Sainsbury's car park attendants you should worry about. Have a read of this..

http://etiqa.blogspot.com/2006/05/assault-by-sainsburys.html

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

DotNetWebs — Sat, 19 May 2007 12:03:04 GMT

[quote][b]M (19/05/2007)[/b][hr]...Perhaps you could post the letter text here to help others![/quote]

Hi M

I am reluctant to post the letter simply because the author of the letter has spent considerable time on it at his own expense. If I post it on a public internet forum I will be effectively be giving his work away free.

I am happy to post a link and thoroughly recommend Trident Investigations(UK) Limited.

Trident Investigations are based in Northampton but by sheer coincidence Neil from Trident who helped me is an ex Broadbridge Heath resident who was familiar with the Car Park in question.

If you look at the services and operations that Trident are involved with you will see that they are experts in this field from "both side on the fence"

I was very fortunate to cross paths with Neil (and I am very glad he was acting in my interests and not the other way around ;) ).

Many Thanks Neil for all your help.

Regards

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Sat, 19 May 2007 10:56:31 GMT

Common sense wins out - with the help of a letter. Perhaps you could post the letter text here to help others!

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

DotNetWebs — Sat, 19 May 2007 10:52:14 GMT

I just thought I would give a quick update on this:

In February I received several letters from Euro Car Parks escalating my 'fine' by adding admin charges etc. I then received further intimidating letters from a debt collection agency threatening imminent court action.

I immediately contacted an expert in these matters who I happen to know via business networking. He drafted a letter for me (for free) which demanded some very specific evidence regarding the contract between Euro Car Parks and Sainsbury's which centred on the wording of the signage within the car park.

Several months down the line and I have heard nothing since. If I enter my ticket number into the Euro Car Park website all the fines and handling charges etc. now read £0.

I have had no confirmation from Euro Car Parks that the ticket has been cancelled but if they still try and pursue this I have further evidence in my favour that they have ignored two registered letters demanding information that I am legally entitled to see. I also have further photographic evidence that Sainsbury's appear to be currently actively encouraging parking outside the marked bays in the underground car park due to all the work currently being carried out. Have a look down there on any Saturday and you will see what I mean.

So what has been the outcome of all this:

Euro car parks have had to pay to obtain my details form DVLA. They have also had to pay for a debt collection agency to send me a few threatening letters.

The Poppy Appeal has gained £30

Sainsbury's have had a bit of bad PR from this thread which has also been linked to from other forums.

Sainsbury's have lost my business. (Which was my entire monthly grocery bill)

Waitrose and the new CO-OP in Southwater have gained my business.

Was it really worth it Sainsbury's ??? :angry:

I would like to reiterate that had the fine been a 'fair cop' I would not hesitate in paying up. In contrast my car was not inconveniencing anybody and was just an easy target for a 'jobsworth' ticket inspector trying to make his quota.

Regards

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Jali — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:57:11 GMT

Thanks for the warning!!!!!!

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

DotNetWebs — Sun, 12 Nov 2006 20:48:13 GMT

Nice One Big Daddy I like your style! :w00t:

It is interesting that you managed to get the manger involved. I obviously didn't shout loud enough.

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Big Daddy — Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:25:48 GMT

Hi Dot,

I,ve been watching this thread with great intrest, I too had a problem with the Car park enforcement team as i recieved a ticket for parking there. Early one morning I parked up in order to carry out a small food shop at sainsburys, I returnd later in the afternoon with my wife and carried out a much larger food shop. I was recorded onto the hand held device thingy in the morning and again in the afternoon, i.e I had been parked there all day. I found the man who issued the ticket and explained the situation and surprise, surprise it was no longer his problem and it was now down to me to start writing letters etc. The red mist decended and wife stood well clear. Answer block the "out barriers" with the car and explain to the gate man, again not his problem, so, leaving car in place return to the shop and make it the problem of the the manager of sainsbury's. This ended up in a big scene at the help desk with the manager who cancelled the ticket. I heard nothing more.

The moral of the story as far as i am concerned it is sainsburys car park and they do have a say what goes on, IF YOU SHOUT LOUD ENOUGH !!! Make sure you win and keep us informed

Regards and Good Hunting

Big D

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

DotNetWebs — Sat, 11 Nov 2006 19:08:21 GMT

Thanks to you all for your support and suggestions over this. I have taken expert advice and do not believe the ticket that was issued is legally enforceable under the circumstances in which it was issued. I will let you know what happens after events have run their course.

I would just like to reaffirm that my protest is not about the money but the principle. As a gesture of this I today put £30 (the early payment price of the ticket) into the Poppy Appeal tin in Sainsbury's Foyer. (I didn't do any shopping there though, I did that at Waitrose :satisfied: )

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Phil — Sat, 04 Nov 2006 17:24:15 GMT

Thanks for the warning Dot, still better then scratching up your car trying to maneuver through the new car park...:angry:

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Whizz Kid — Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:08:36 GMT

Perhaps you should let the council know about this aas well. I am sure you will win, but it may not stop them trying it on again. The council may succeed in this though. This behaviour is outrageous and needs to be stopped.
Keep us posted.

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Dancemix — Mon, 30 Oct 2006 14:29:37 GMT

Give them hell Dot. I can't stand this kind of #bleep#!:D

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Mon, 30 Oct 2006 07:34:35 GMT

And the sign does not mention and terms and conditions available elsewhere. I think that your appeal is worth pursuing

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

DotNetWebs — Sun, 29 Oct 2006 17:04:10 GMT

I went back to Sainsbury's car park today to take a closer look at the signs:

As you can see there is no mention of a fine for 'improper' parking. It does not even mention the fact that the car park is run by anybody other than Sainsbury's.

It certainly does not state that parking slightly over a white line constitutes 'improper' parking. Incidentally a Sainsbury's employee who is regularly in the car park told me that he did not know this was an 'offence'.

I think I will contest it after all.

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

DotNetWebs — Thu, 26 Oct 2006 21:33:49 GMT

Unfortunately I don't think is has anything to do with the Council or even Sainsbury's. It is a private car park and Euro Car Parks have the contract to run it. The thing that annoys me is I have not seen any signs suggesting that parking (just) outside the white lines will result in a fine.

To me the person that put the ticket on was being very pedantic and probably just trying to make his 'quota'. I will not contest it but having shopped there almost every week since it opened I will now not park (or shop) there again when it is busy. At peaks times people often don't even park in the boxes at all. If Euro Car Parks continue to dish these tickets out for such minor offences I would imagine it will start to cost Sainsbury's business.

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:29:22 GMT

A similar thing happened to us in the Park car park. We had to park on the line because we were 'forced over' by poor parking next to us. Luckily we had a camera with us and took a photo of the wheel and the line then appealed the case. The council took sympathy with us and threw out the ticket.

Perhaps you might 'blame' the car next to you ;)

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

DotNetWebs — Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:55:13 GMT

Thanks Guys for your support:

This is the ticket they issue you:

http://www.eurocarparks.com/charges-pcn.htm

One wheel over a white line will get you a box 'C'

I note they even have the cheek to add on a 'handling charge' if you pay by credit card.

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Big Daddy — Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:40:40 GMT

Hi Dot

You should challenge this and don't let them win

RE: Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

Whizz Kid — Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:12:55 GMT

Is this truly enforcable? Can they really fine you?
What exactly hav eyou infringed? Is there a bye-law in force here? Is this not private property?

Sainsbury's Car Park - a word of warning

DotNetWebs — Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:52:39 GMT

I was very disappointed to find a £50 parking ticket on returning to my car in the Sainsbury's Car park this afternoon. My 'Crime' was that one of my wheels was over a white line and the car was not fully in the box. I had entered the car park after 5pm and the barriers were up. I parked in the underground car park which was half empty. Admittedly the car was parked a bit carelessly but as the car park was so empty it was not hindering anybody. I have seen far worse parking on many occasions in this car park and was not aware that a parking fine system was in force for such minor offences.

The car park is not controlled by Sainsbury's but by Euro Car Parks who would appear to have some very overzealous parking attendants. If like me you were unaware that you could be fined £50 for such a minor infringement I would suggest that you take great care when parking in Sainsbury's car park.