Horsham Forum - A Community Forum for Horsham and Southwater Residents and Businesses / Horsham Chat / Horsham Chat / Swan Walk swans to go.... / Latest Posts

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

Horshamite — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 22:16:35 GMT

I think this is a very important issue. The concept of clone towns has been getting a lot of coverage recently. The Civic Trust in particular has been campaigning on this issue and encouraging towns to undertake a type of clone town audit. Can I suggest this might be a subject for a new thread and encourage members to identify what are Horsham's unique selling points that we should capitalise on. The separate discussion on fireworks and the switch on of the lights is also relevant. That was an event that really made us different to other towns, and it drew enormous crowds, but we seem to have lost it through penny pinching and a failure to understand that we have to invest in our town if we are to keep it commercially vibrant. Part of the problem I suspect is that the national chains really have no stake in the community and are not prepared to play the same part, or put their hands in their pockets, as small local traders. Yet it is the national chains that could afford to invest in community events. And when we have a treasure - such as the Cricket Week - we fail to get behind it.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

DotNetWebs — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:51:32 GMT

I made the comment earlier in this thread that I believe Horsham shoppers and visitors do not want a clone of Crawley, Guilford or any other town for that matter. I also said that I think if we end up as a clone of one of these larger towns people will just end up shopping in the larger town anyway since we will never be able to compete as a cut down version of the real thing. Judging by the comments in this forum, the County Times and those that have been made to me off-line, many other Horsham residents feel them same.

In today's Independent there is a great article which reinforces those points. An abbreviated version is available on line here:

Clone-town Britain faces a rebellion on the high street.

The Independents Editorial & Opinion also features this story:

Leading article: Personal shopper

Apparently the the backlash against the "clone town" could be be starting.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

Fri, 05 Oct 2007 19:54:49 GMT

With regard to my suggestion that the WSCT was pandering to the wishes of their advertisers; DNW was right - it was tongue in cheek. I know that the Swan Walk managers cannot influence the editorial. I still wonder why the original press release (12th Sept) was not covered in the following paper and why, the following week the coverage was not as campaigning as it might be - and was the week after that.

Anyway, it's a good job done by all, not least of all WSCT & HDC and now we must move on to ensure that the Swans are restored to an equally prominent position within the centre.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

DotNetWebs — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 15:34:18 GMT

Thanks for the comments Mike.

I would just like to add to that we should also be very grateful to Horsham District Council who have listened to public option and acted upon it. It was HDC who managed to persuade the owners of Swan Walk to agree to reinstate the swans.

To illustrate this here is the body of a memo that was circulated by the council:

[quote]Update on removal of Swan sculpture in Swan Walk Shopping Centre, Horsham

Please find an update as of 2.55pm today (2 October 2007)

Tom Crowley, Chief Executive of Horsham District Council, said:

Horsham District Council has been in partnership with Norwich Union and its asset managers, Morley, since the shopping centre was built in the 1970s. I met Chris Paterson, Fund Manager (Retail) of Morley this afternoon (2 October).

I am pleased to say we have agreed a way forward and Chris has confirmed the swans will be re-instated within the centre. I agreed that we will initiate a joint consultation with local organisations and the wider community about the details of where within the centre would be best. The intention is that once a decision is made on this point, in the very near future, the sculpture will be returned as part of the planned refurbishment works which will start in January 2008.[/quote]

I think ultimately we should also be thankful to Morely for agreeing to reverse their decision. In my experiences many other big business would have stubbornly refused to admit they had made a mistake and stuck their heels in rather than 'lose face'

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

MikeH — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 06:40:56 GMT

I just want to say "Thank you" and "Well done" to Gavin, Mr. Raw, the WSCT and the multitude of folks who e-mailed, snail-mailed or otherwise made their voices heard. I was so unexpectedly gutted when I heard the swans were actually taken out. I guess I believed it was such a stupid idea and, with the spot light beginning to shine on them, the mall officials wouldn't have the nerve to go through with it. And also, this was bigger than the swans and Horsham; this was about normal people with their common sense intact standing up to big business and government and saying, "We're had enough! Just stop it already!" So when I heard the swans had been removed after all of the protesting, I was really saddened and depressed.

The news that they are coming back really made my day. And I'm glad to hear someone's keeping an eye on them ;)

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

DotNetWebs — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 23:37:32 GMT

[quote][b]Lexana (03/10/2007)[/b][hr]who will cut the ribbon when the swans are launched :D[/quote]

Lorne McKean would get my vote. She's already involved with the "re-instatement panel" according to the latest BBC article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/sussex/7026925.stm

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

karen-hearts — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:45:11 GMT

who will cut the ribbon when the swans are launched :D

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

DotNetWebs — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:40:06 GMT

Good points Johny and Horshamite.

If the owners of Swan Walk have any sense they will follow it through and capitalise on the Swans popularity by having some sort of event to mark their return. I am sure if handled correctly they could turn it around and get a good bit of PR out of it.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

DotNetWebs — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:14:35 GMT

[quote][b]Tim Raw (03/10/2007)[/b][hr]It's great news.

The County Times is very keen to include all of your comments on this.

Can everybody who has left messages since my last post yesterday (Tuesday October 2, 15.48) call me on 01403 751231 or email raw@sussexnewspapers.co.uk with full contact details as soon as possible to help me to get these comments into the paper, please?

Thanks

And well done![/quote]

Hi Tim

I have sent you an email but it initially bounced (I think there was a typo in your link). I have ammended the link now and sent a new one. If you still don't receive it either post again here or contact me on 07776 236002

Gavin Hewins

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

Horshamite — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 10:04:24 GMT

Jonny is right. This is a significant victory of commonsense over corporate greed but as Churchill said, it is only the end of the beginning. We must make sure that the consultation that we have been promised is real and that the views of the people of Horsham help frame the outcome rather just rubber stamp a final plan.

There can be no doubt that this highly successful campaign will have surprised our elected representatives. The fact that it was a genuine uprising of anger from normally compliant voters rather being orchestrated from a single source makes it even more significant. People who would never dream of manning a picket line or joining a march have discovered they can have as much, or more, impact by sending an email. Local politics is not going to be the same again after this because a similar campaign could be unleashed just as easily against the Council. But there are dangers, mob rule can be ugly. There is however a simple solution. The Council should learn from this experience and harness the public's new found desire for participation by running genuine consultations in future on big issues facing the district before they make up their minds.

A lot of good can come out of the last 10 days if the right lessons are learned.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

Tim Raw — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:51:23 GMT

It's great news.

The County Times is very keen to include all of your comments on this.

Thanks

And well done!

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

john jones — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:15:51 GMT

It’s not over yet!

Sorry, but my experience of the latest trends in business is that it has become common practice for businesses under ‘the spot light’ to agree they have made a mistake and then do nothing about it. There have been many examples of this recently.

This debacle is not over until a date of repatriation, in the original spot, is announced And even then pressure needs to be maintained to make sure it happens. Otherwise there will be a whole string of excuses s to why the deadline was not met.

May I suggest that as the County Times has done such a great job, you push to get that date and then when it is announced you organise ‘a public opening’ This way it will be too embarrassing for them not to deliver.

We done everyone!

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

DotNetWebs — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 00:52:54 GMT

[quote][b]M (02/10/2007)[/b][hr]

I think that DNW will confirm that this is the busiest thread / posts per day (or any other metric) that the Horsham Forum has seen.[/quote]

M - Thanks for starting this thread of in the first place. You are right it has been the busiest thread since starting this forum.

TheDave - Thanks for posting Gary Shipton's email.

Gary Shipton - Thanks for the feedback and acknowledging the influence that this forum had in your decision to launch a campaign. I think the smiley after the comment you refer to shows that it was made slightly tongue-in-cheek. I can't speak for M but I read that as more of a 'call for action' than a genuine accusation. I don't think there is any doubt that the County Times has acted in the best interests of Horsham.

Everyone else - thanks for caring enough about your town to make your feelings known and ultimately helping to make Horsham a great place to live in. :)

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

JLC — Tue, 02 Oct 2007 20:30:38 GMT

I'm glad we've got the Swan's coming back...... whenever that may be!

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:47:12 GMT

Son of M says 'woo hoo, the swans are coming back!'

M says: Great news and well done to the WSCT, Horsham Forum and the Horsham Society for recognising the wishes of all of Horsham and campaigning on their behalf.

I think that DNW will confirm that this is the busiest thread / posts per day (or any other metric) that the Horsham Forum has seen.

Well done to everyone who took part in the campaign - at all levels

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

TheDave — Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:13:08 GMT

Glad this has been resolved so promptly, agree that it shows that the internet is a powerful tool on a local level as well as a global one, whilst sticking up posters, seminating pamphlets- use of tv/radio is all very easily moderated.
I am late to post this but still, here are the contents to an email I received from Gary Shipton, editor in chief.

Hi Dave

I wanted to thank you personally for sending us a copy of your photo of the Swan Walk swans being removed.
I am delighted that after much up-front and behind the scenes lobbying the swans are to be returned to Swan Walk and as I understand it, if the public wishes, to the spot from where they were removed. A report now appears on our website.
I have read the comments on the Horsham Forum with interest – and gratitude. A reader referred me to them and they certainly helped convince me we should launch the County Times campaign. Can you pass on my thanks to all concerned?
I did note one comment – that perhaps concern at the possible loss of advertising revenue might influence our editorial position. I have many faults but believe me when I say I only ever adopt the editorial line which I believe is in the best interests of Horsham and our readers – and am never influenced by commercial considerations.

Very best wishes

Gary

Gary Shipton

Editor:

West Sussex County Times group

Editor In Chief:

Sussex Newspapers North
14-16 Market Square, Horsham
West Sussex RH12 1HD

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

DotNetWebs — Tue, 02 Oct 2007 17:26:40 GMT

[quote][b]Tim Raw (02/10/2007)[/b][hr]Has everyone seen the County Times website www.wscountytimes.co.uk?

The swans are to return![/quote]

Hi Tim

That is great news. Common sense has prevailed. :)

I think the County Times has done a great job with the campaign but I think the real credit goes to the people of Horsham who have contacted your newspaper, this forum and other similar sites to make their feelings known. It illustrates that Horsham people really do care about their town and decision makers would be wise to seek their opinion prior to making such Ratner-style blunders in the future.

I also think this decision has highlighted that the power of the internet can now be used to influence 'local' events. It's hard to imagine that so many people would be involved and that things would have moved so quickly had people not had access to the web.

Well done to all involved :)

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

karen-hearts — Tue, 02 Oct 2007 16:28:18 GMT

omg that's such good news :)

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

Tim Raw — Tue, 02 Oct 2007 15:48:58 GMT

Has everyone seen the County Times website www.wscountytimes.co.uk?

The swans are to return!

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

john jones — Tue, 02 Oct 2007 11:30:02 GMT

There needs to be a proper democratic debate about this. The person(s) who took this discission needs to explain themselves. On the face of it the H&S argument is flawed and I rather suspect that someone has over reacted. I am concerned that there is an individual or individuals in the local authority who are taking it upon themselves to push decisions through, even though they may be daft.( The requirement to put your registration number onto a parking ticket is another example of stupidity. Is it the same person???)

The time has come for this (these) individuals to be identified and account for their actions.

Next time it may be more serious and could make the town a laughing stock.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

DotNetWebs — Tue, 02 Oct 2007 07:31:03 GMT

Yes wyrdenough thank you for registering and welcome to the forums!

The BBC South Today website now has the news clip that was shown on BBC South Today last night. Unfortunately the BBC make it difficult to link directly to the clip but it is currently available from this page:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/southtoday/latest_stories/index.shtml

Thanks M for informing the Horsham Society about the origin the photograph currently on their homepage. I was also asked permission to use this by the BBC so it has now found its way onto the above video.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

AndyH — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 21:00:40 GMT

p.s. Welcome the Forum wyrdenough. Like the avatar!:D

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

AndyH — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:59:04 GMT

Must agree with you on that. Consultants who no doubt were on their first ever trip to the town.

As for the "new flexible and interactive space", is it going to be another place to park a car from a local dealership and get even more in the way than the Swans ever did? For example the current Vauxhall 4x4 parked in the middle of the main thoroughfare, supported by a completely bored sales person reading a book? If you want to talk Health and Safety, I nearly hit my head on its raised tailgate yesterday when I was passing this obstacle.(anyone got the number for claims direct?)

If a new interactive area is what we really need, (I was unaware Horsham was in need of one) then utilise the empty space already available,ie. past Wilkinsons.

My other suggestion which has already been mentioned in this thread, is to create a "food court" by Wilkinsons, to attract more people towards a more quiet area of the centre. (Not forgetting that there is already a restaurant there completely unused).

It's not rocket science!

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

wyrdenough — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:30:41 GMT

It just goes to show the lack of consultation which is at the heart of local managemnt, whether state or commercial. They have probably brought in over paid consultants who consulted an unrepresentative focus group, using leading questions to justify their decision.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

DotNetWebs — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:43:23 GMT

I have just read Mr Paterson's comments again and they display an almost Gerald Ratner-style contempt of Horsham people.

"We must work to modernise the centre in the face of increasing competition from nearby shopping centres like Crawley and Guildford.

"We are trying to create an environment where retailers are happy to come to Horsham"

As mentioned previously removing the Swans and replacing them with "a new expanded events space" will likely have the opposite affect. Horsham shoppers don't want a cut down version of Crawley or Guilford they want to enjoy Horsham for the sort of things that led to it being voted the 2nd best place to live. Take away the character, history and unique features that make Horsham special and you may as well go to Guilford and Crawley to get a bigger and better version of the same thing.

If a "new events space" is required why not put it up the far end in the empty space opposite Wilkinson?. There must be ways to modernise the centre without destroying its character by removing the much-loved Swans.

"It's not disappearing, it's moving to become a public piece of art in a public space rather than a private piece of art in a semi-private place."

Firstly, as I understand it, there does not yet exist a 'home' for it. Nobody has been consulted about a 'home' for it. Why doesn't Mr Paterson simply admit the Swans have been removed for commercial purposes and will donate them to Horsham if a home can be found.

But most importantly, wherever they eventually are located, it is extremely patronising to say:

"the people of Horsham who would now have better access to it."

The people of Horsham want it to stay where it belongs. In (what was) its current location in Swan Walk. The place that is used for a meeting point, the place that brings pleasure to children, the place that still brings a smile to many people on a daily basis after 16 years. Nowhere else in Horsham is going to have the same effect. As so many people have pointed out it is not suitable for an outside location as it was not designed to be climbed upon etc. If it's moved to the museum how often are people going to see it?

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

DotNetWebs — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:39:08 GMT

The latest from the county Times:

Reason for swans' removal revealed

Suprise, suprise it had nothing to do with health and safety :angry:

"Mr Paterson [fund manger] said Horsham shoppers would agree Swan Walk was looking 'of its time' and insisted Lorne McKean's popular centrepiece was in the way of a series of planned modernisation initiatives."

Well done to the County Times for getting to the bottom of this.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

DotNetWebs — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 14:21:47 GMT

Hi Tim

It's great to see that the County Times reads this forum. Thanks for registering - even if it is only to secure rights for a photograph! :w00t:

Everybody I know either offline or online supports your campaign to save the swans. I think it would help further still if you could promote, or at least investigate, a practicable solution to the problem.

In a previous post I repeated a suggestion that has been made by your own readers. It is a suggestion that I have also heard independently from elsewhere i.e :

1. Move BB’s to the vacant restaurant space opposite Wilkinson’s. If the area was refurbished perhaps other businesses could be added creating a ‘food court’ at that end of the mall. This would also have the added bonus of increasing passing traffic to what is currently the quieter section of Swan Walk.

2. Leave the Swans in position but allow them the space they enjoyed prior to the arrival of BB's. Then do whatever is necessary to remove the whatever health and safety ‘risk’ exists. A simple low-level barrier should do it or, if really necessary, drain them.

As many people have pointed out the risk of slipping on hot coffee spilt by BB's customers trying to negotiate their way through busy shoppers seems to far exceed any risk from the water from the fountain. Everyone I have spoken to thinks moving BB's is a natural solution to the problem. The opportunity could be taken to improve the catering facilities within Swan Walk and at the same time bring shoppers back in to the quieter end of the mall.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

Tim Raw — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 10:21:47 GMT

Hi The Dave,

My name's Tim Raw.

I'm a reporter on the West Sussex County Times.

Can you contact me on 01403 751231 or email tim.raw@sussexnewspapers .co.uk as soon as possible re the picture of the swans' removal?

Thanks

Tim

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

karen-hearts — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 07:10:25 GMT

It appears that swan walk management do not care about anything past profit.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

DotNetWebs — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 01:13:31 GMT

Very sad indeed. :crying:

Thanks for posting the photograph TheDave and welcome to the forums

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

AndyH — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:28:29 GMT

A very sad sight.

Small minded people have won the day.But they had to do it on the quiet and against a huge swell of public opinion. If this is only to do with "environmental and health" issues then I do not believe it. This is to do with one issue only.....MONEY.

I hope that Swan Walk management suffer the shame that they deserve in the Press.:angry::angry:

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

TheDave — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:14:17 GMT

Here's a picture of the swans being loaded up onto a vehicle.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

AndyH — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:13:24 GMT

I was in Swan walk at lunchtime today (sunday) and the swans were still there. I did notice on the boards surrounding the swans that someone had written on "Save Our Swans", and it had been roughly removed , I guess by the centre management. Gives you some idea of how people feel about such a well known landmark.

Today would present them with a good opportunity to move them as the shops close at 4 pm and don't re-open until 9.30 tomorrow.This is the longest time that centre is shut all week.

I will be waiting to see how long that space is free......:angry:

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

TheDave — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:32:28 GMT

I've just had word that the swans have been removed already- from my step brother who took a photo but has no means to upload it as he's going away imminently I've no proof- but you'll find out for yourselves soon enough, I can't believe it's gone so fast- and health and safety issues? Pardon me but I don't consider BB's to be in a safe location, its surprising no one (at least to my knowledge) has had hot coffee spilt on them when passing through past the counter. It makes me wonder that it's a setup, it's more of a hazard now that BB's are there- the fountain was hardly a safety issue then before BBs, not saying that it really is now.
I reckon it's BB's and their want for more seating capacity, lets see how long it takes them to fill the gap.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

Twinkle — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:27:20 GMT

I agree with everyone on this forum. Leave the swans where they belong. Drain them if really necessary.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

DotNetWebs — Sat, 29 Sep 2007 17:45:38 GMT

[quote][b]Lexana (29/09/2007)[/b][hr]Thanks for the welcome dotnetwebs, ive been lurking on here for a few weeks now ,so i'm not very new.:)

I was surprised their was so much in the county times about the swans, i thought i was just being sentimental but alot of people feel the same as me.

The health and safety issue appears to be fiction.[/quote]

Yes there are three full, highly condensed, pages of letters, emails and text messages published in the County Times this week. All of them reflect the sentiment that has been expressed in the forum so far and not a single one has even the remotest support for the idea.

To be honest I am amazed that the Owners of Swan Walk did not predict this reaction. I am also surprised that the County Times also initially took a very ‘neutral’ stance on this issue.

I think this decision could have wider-reaching consequences for Horsham Shopping. Several of the letters reflect one of the opinions I have already expressed. e.g. Mr A Little says ”Swan Walk will revert to a featureless boring small town shopping mall of which there are hundreds around the county”.

Many of the people I know who shop in Horsham Town Centre regularly are proud of their town and given the choice between shopping in Horsham and shopping elsewhere will choose Horsham out of loyalty to ‘their’ town. They like the fact that Horsham has a high number of independent shops and many features that are unique to Horsham. People visiting are often impressed by the uniqueness of the town that offers something different from your run-of-the-mill shopping mall.

As much as Horsham Town Centre regular shoppers love ‘their’ town I am sure that we they would all admit that other nearby town centres have a wider range of ‘mainstream’ shops and services. If we take away all the unique and independent bits of Horsham what will remain will be a cut down version of what is on offer nearby. If this is allowed to happen what incentive will ‘loyal’ Horsham shoppers have to continue shopping in Horsham? One of the letters in the County Times already carries an ominous warning of this changing sentiment. Mrs Short says “I really don’t know what this town is coming to. We must be thankful that Crawley’s County Mall is not to far away".

it is clear from the letters in the County Times that surrounding the swans by an eating area was never a popular move in the first place. One solution to this and the current ‘swans' problem (that I have independently heard from several people and also occurs in some of the letters in the County Times) is the following:

2. Leave the Swans in position but do whatever is necessary to remove the alleged health and safety ‘risk’. Either drain them or erect a simple low-level barrier, it can’t be that difficult!

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

DotNetWebs — Sat, 29 Sep 2007 16:03:48 GMT

[quote][b]Horshamite (29/09/2007)[/b][hr]It is remarkably difficult for a newcomer to identify who is who among the moderators. Is there a crib sheet?[/quote]

Hi I am not exactly sure what your question is.

At the bottom of each topic the moderators for that section are listed. In general the moderators are the same throughout the public sections of these forums namely

M (Hidden Horsham)
Dancemix (DJ Brian Mole)
and Me

Hope this helps.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

karen-hearts — Sat, 29 Sep 2007 16:02:59 GMT

Thanks for the welcome dotnetwebs, ive been lurking on here for a few weeks now ,so i'm not very new.:)

I was surprised their was so much in the county times about the swans, i thought i was just being sentimental but alot of people feel the same as me.

The health and safety issue appears to be fiction.

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

Horshamite — Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:15:22 GMT

It is remarkably difficult for a newcomer to identify who is who among the moderators. Is there a crib sheet?

RE: Swan Walk swans to go....

Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:40:09 GMT

Aah, WSCT know a band wagon when they see one! And I am happy to climb aboard

I note that the Horsham Society has correctly credited you now, fame is such a fickle master