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RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Borat — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 09:23:48 GMT

Kleeze man said - "as a direct result of our rablings I have indeed had 7 appllications for further info from this forum with one new distribuor about to sign up....close to you I hope."

If this is true Borat is next president of US of A

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AndyH — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 22:51:28 GMT

Well if anyone is about to sign up with kleeneze after reading this thread on the forum they are either mad or can't read. I think this really is vain hope from Mr. Pace. Shame he couldn't answer any of the questions posed to him without resorting to petty insults. Typical salesman. Can't admit it when they have missed out on a sale and would rather resort to harassment than be polite. Anyway forumites, another one bites the dust on the kleeneze thread........

I bet he still looks.....:P

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ernie — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:01:54 GMT

Yes what a truly unpleasant man and what a typical response when a Kleeneze pusher doesn't get his own way. "I'm off, look how much money I have made and I won't be looking at this thread again" YEAH RIGHT!

It's funny he complains about me making personal comments but anybody reading thread will see that it was he that said "Your ignorance is baffling" and "next stupid ill informed question please" in response to a perfectly valid point comparing the Kleeneze business model to a true franchise - a point he couldn't even understand because of his own 'lack of education' about business matters.

Incidentally I found out why he thinks his Kleeneze job is more "moral" than his last one. He was a "Financial Services / Mortgage Advisor" who business folded around the time of the beginning of the credit crunch that was caused by the selling of "sub-prime" mortgages.

In one of his "motivational" Kleeneze speeches that can be heard online he complains about being "stitched up" by a customer who canceled a policy "costing him" his commission.

The reason they have "cooling off periods" is because it allow customers to think about what they have been sold after the pushy salesman has left!

Mr Pace's own website doesn't actually even mention Kleeneze. It's main pictures shows it is "raining money". It's this attitude that "money grows on trees" that led to the recession in the first place.

I don't think giving false promises like this is any more moral than working an industry that created a recession by selling mortgages to people that couldn't afford them.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Horshamite — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 09:02:45 GMT

What an unpleasant man. Hopefully this will be the end of the subject.

It's a free country (just) so individuals can choose whether or not to become salesmen, or to run a squad of salesmen, and I can continue to put their catalogues straight in the rubbish bin.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Pace — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 07:57:15 GMT

[quote][b]Ernie (26/06/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Tim Pace (26/06/2009)[/b][hr]I am not cetain of your age sir or if you understand business I will attempt to educate you.

[/quote]

What a condescending, patronising reply! You clearly have no great understanding of business yourself as you have demonstrated by you lack of understanding about franchises.

Also why have you taken to posting everything in red? Do you think that by shouting like this people will take more notice of you? It's not clever, is bad forum etiquette and just makes you look desperate.[/quote]

Hi Ernie my little pigeon, While this has been fun I am getting bord now so I will be off to educate someone else. However as with most uneducated people once they start getting shot down in flames they revert to personal insults or nit picking if you can only start an argument over the colour of a font then who exactly is getting desperate. ?

BTW as a direct result of our rablings I have indeed had 7 appllications for further info from this forum with one new distribuor about to sign up....close to you I hope.

Thank you for your assistance in this matter. I bid you all farewell, this link has now been removed from ny pc. Job done. So dont bother replying I'm off to count my money....goodnight

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ernie — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:13:50 GMT

[quote][b]Tim Pace (26/06/2009)[/b][hr]I am not cetain of your age sir or if you understand business I will attempt to educate you.

[/quote]

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Pace — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:25:44 GMT

[quote][b]AndyH (25/06/2009)[/b][hr]A quote from an earlier post.

"I have a new starter who last month earned £350 she paid £150 for her books How is she taking a risk for me. BTW she earned £200 net Kleeneze paid me £80 for her turnover. So even a brand new distributor at the lowest level in my tea, earns more than me out of her business than I do."

Now, she went out and got all the business and made the sales and earned £200 and you got £80. Should she have not got £280 and you nothing. After all WHAT DID YOU HAVE TO DO WITH THE TRANSACTION?

She made the sales, did the ordering, went and delivered the goods and collected the money. And you did what?

Reminds me of one of my favourite Dire Straights songs "Money for Nothing"....[/quote]

I am not cetain of your age sir or if you understand business I will attempt to educate you. In all forms of business to make it work a profit has to be made. However in a Job the boss makes more money out of the employee than he or she does. If you have a job (I do not know if you do) would it be reasonable for your boss to give you 100% of the profit that you earn for your labours ? In my business every single team member earns MORE out of their business than I do. However all the small incomes add up. So in the example I gave the new distributor who joined my team got £280 I got £80. My brother in law is a mechanic he gets paid £10.25 per hour yet the garage he works for charges £75 per hr for his labour. BTW the £80 I got paid was paid to me by Kleeneze not the distributor. Nor one of my distributors pays me 1p

What have I done

Initialy when a new distributor joins my team they are enrolled into our trainiong program for new starters this invoved in the example I gave of a trip to her home on 5 occasions in total. I provided all of the initial paperwork required to do the initial drops. In total hrs of training. When the first order as ready to place on the system I assisted her to do this. I was also available 24/7 (as for all my distributors) to help guide & train her. In the majority of cases a new distributor costs me money if I take into consideration all the time and personal expense in getting them started.

Team Leaders also out of their own pocket attend many training events to learn how to build and manage a team of people. I am based in Walsall in the west midlands I have nearly 40 distributors in my team. I am available almost 24/7 to train help & guide them. I havew teams in Southhampton, LOndon, Luton, Milton Keynes, South Wales, Hereford, Worcestershire, The Midlands, Yorkshire, Manchester & Scotland. Some months I travel from one end of the country to the other training and helping people to make money.

To sum up. Kleeneze DO NOT pay us for introducing distributors. We make NO money at all unless they make money and when they do we always make less than they do out of their own business.

I wait with bated breath for you to give me the name and telephone number of any boss in the uK that employs someone and makes less money on an individual basis that they do from their efforts.

To be honest I dont blame anyone for disbelieving this as a principle I have to admit it's very difficult to grasp. Kleeneze provide income statements and pay cheques at the end of every 4 weeks. Thank God they do so we can back up all our incomes.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ernie — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:11:30 GMT

[quote][b]AndyH (25/06/2009)[/b][hr]Don't franchises usually give exclusive rights to a certain areas, something you admit Kleeneze doesn't.[/quote]

Exactly the point I was trying to make Andy. Unfortunately it was lost on our Kleeneze friend because he doesn't even understand what a true Franchised business is!

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AndyH — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:26:17 GMT

http://www.thebfa.org/

Interesting website. Didn't see kleeneze on their list of franchises.......

Don't franchises usually give exclusive rights to a certain areas, something you admit Kleeneze doesn't.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ernie — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:21:41 GMT

Tim what is your reason for joining this HORSHAM forum when it appears that you are from Birmingham?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22tim+pace%22+kleeneze&hl=en&start=10&sa=N&filter=0

Come here to drum up business did you? Or are you in the pay of Kleeneze for speaking at their conventions?

Interestingly most of your spammy classified ads in that list have already been deleted.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ernie — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:17:11 GMT

[quote][b]Tim Pace (25/06/2009)[/b][hr][quote

Your ignorance is baffling !!!!

next stupid ill informed question please ?

[/quote]

There is only one stupid ill informed ignorant person here - the one that doesn't understand what a Franchise is! :D

http://www.thebfa.org/

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AndyH — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:08:30 GMT

A quote from an earlier post.

Now, she went out and got all the business and made the sales and earned £200 and you got £80. Should she have not got £280 and you nothing. After all WHAT DID YOU HAVE TO DO WITH THE TRANSACTION?

She made the sales, did the ordering, went and delivered the goods and collected the money. And you did what?

Reminds me of one of my favourite Dire Straights songs "Money for Nothing"....

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Pace — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:01:41 GMT

[quote][b]Ernie (25/06/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Tim Pace (25/06/2009)[/b][hr]a Kleeneze franchise [/quote]

A Kleeneze 'business' is not a franchise. A franchise is a 'proper' business.

It would be better if were a franchise because it would be more tightly regulated and we would not get the problem of multiple overlapping agents.[/quote]

Your ignorance is baffling !!!! we are very strictly controled with a strict regulatory board

http://www.dsa.org/about/

Wikipedia: Multi-level marketing

Multi-level marketing (MLM), is a form of Network Marketing (however the terms are often used interchangeably). It is a marketing strategy that compensates promoters of direct selling companies not only for product sales they personally generate, but also for the sales of others they introduced to the company. The products and company are usually marketed directly to consumers and potential business partners by means of relationship referrals and word of mouth marketing. ^[1]

Independent, unsalaried salespeople of multi-level marketing, referred to as distributors (or associates, independent business owners, dealers, franchise owners, sales consultants, consultants, independent agents, etc.), represent the parent company and are awarded a commission based upon the volume of product sold through each of their independent businesses (organizations).

Independent distributors develop their organizations by either building an active customer base, who buy direct from the parent company, or by recruiting a downline of independent distributors who also build a customer base, thereby expanding the overall organization. Additionally, distributors can also earn a profit by retailing products they purchased from the parent company at wholesale price.

Distributors earn a commission based on the sales efforts of their organization, which includes their independent sale efforts as well as the leveraged sales efforts of their downline. This arrangement is similar to franchise arrangements where royalties are paid from the sales of individual franchise operations to the franchisor as well as to an area or region manager. Commissions are paid to multi-level marketing distributors according to the company’s compensation plan. There can be multiple levels of people receiving royalties from one person's sales.

Wikipedia: Kleeneze

Kleeneze Homecare is a multi-level marketing company, and was started in 1923, in Bristol, England. The founder, Harry Crook, had emigrated to America with his family several years earlier and while there joined Fuller Brush as a sales representative. He returned to Bristol several years later and started his business making brushes which were sold door to door by salesmen. Kleeneze was bought by Findel PLC in 2007 after the collapse of their parent company European Home Retail.

During the war years of 1939-1945, women were encouraged to become salespeople while the men were away fighting.

Since the 1980s, Kleeneze has used a different approach, using catalogues which each Independent Distributor delivers to householders and then fulfills the orders.

The company remained at its original site for almost 80 years, but in May 2004 relocated to its new office headquarters and distribution centre in Warmley, Bristol. In 2007 after the acquisition by Findel the move to Accrington was announced ^[1] .

Kleeneze was a founder member of the Direct Selling Association, and is also the oldest network marketing company in Europe, having started its networking operations in the 1970s. Kleeneze also donates a percentage of profits to MacMillan Cancer Relief.

After trading for over 80 years throughout the United Kingdom, expansion of its Network Marketing business program into Europe started with the Republic of Ireland, followed by the Netherlands in 2004 and Germany in 2006.

next stupid ill informed question please ?

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Pace — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:49:40 GMT

[quote][b]Ernie (25/06/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Tim Pace (25/06/2009)[/b][hr]So YES I am very seriously saying that 75% of the books are read. Well in my business anyway[/quote]

I wasn't asking about YOUR business I was talking nationally.

Well I work a Kleeneze business you do not, you are clutching at straws now my friend. I cannot speak for every distributor in the country and if I cannot them you certainly cannot.

On an establisshed round I would say the figure of lookers is about 96% I have just had a look at my figures foer a new round and the average lookers is between 58% and 75%

I t is ompossible for me to answer for every distributor in the UK, Germany & Holland.

I don't doubt that if you can eventually find an established 'round' that you may end up with a higher percentage of people looking at the books.

My problem is with people continuing to deliver to areas where they have little chance of succeeding. Often with rival agents overlapping. There is NO WAY that you are going to get 75% of people reading the catalogues here on a random 'drop'.

As I said my figures are between 58% and 75%

As I keep saying, (nationally) you are inconveniencing the majority to find your minority[/quote]

You are a very presumptuose person. Every business has it's minority that love it and hate it. All any business needs is loyal customers , and we have thousands and thousands of them.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ernie — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:54:58 GMT

[quote][b]Tim Pace (25/06/2009)[/b][hr]a Kleeneze franchise [/quote]

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ernie — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:50:47 GMT

[quote][b]Tim Pace (25/06/2009)[/b][hr]So YES I am very seriously saying that 75% of the books are read. Well in my business anyway[/quote]

I wasn't asking about YOUR business I was talking nationally.

I don't doubt that if you can eventually find an established 'round' that you may end up with a higher percentage of people looking at the books.

My problem is with people continuing to deliver to areas where they have little chance of succeeding. Often with rival agents overlapping. There is NO WAY that you are going to get 75% of people reading the catalogues here on a random 'drop'.

As I keep saying, (nationally) you are inconveniencing the majority to find your minority

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Pace — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:00:05 GMT

[quote][b]Ernie (25/06/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Tim Pace (24/06/2009)[/b][hr]

Which of these facts do you dispute?

1. New Kleeneze agents are often recruited into Kleenze with unrealistic promises of "Financial Freedom"

Incorrect

2. The majority of new agents quit shortly after joining and are not refunded their start up costs.

Incorrect new agents can obtain a refund up to 14 days after joining of their start up fee

80% of all new businesses in the UK fail within the first 12 months. To expect Kleeneze to be any different is nieve to say the least.

[/quote]

1. No that fact is correct. Note I said OFTEN not ALWAYS. You only have to look at that last Kleeneze website I posted and the thousands like it to know that that is true

Ok I will give you that one I missed the often bit. However it is NOT unrealistic many hundreds of people have become financaily free in the UK as a result of Kleeneze.Certainly a hell of a lot more that in a job anyway.

2. No that fact is also correct because additional catalogues are part of the start up costs and you do not refund the cost of the [lost] catalogues do you? You have also confirmed that most will fail and since most will try for at least 14 days only a tiny percentage will get their money back.[/quote]

In the time I have been running my business I would say about 70% to 80% of the people have recovered their start up costs within 1 month of joining. On a new starter round the average takings in the UK are £1 per book( in reality some take nothing others £20+ but it averages out to £1 a book.) at 21% retail profit and an average of £1 per book that means that every book makes 21p profit every time it is dropped regardless of if it results in an order or not.

As far as refunding the cost of lost catalogues that is just silly. Its the kind of comment we get from people who have jobs and are not used to the principals of running a business. Every Kleeneze business is a business it is the resposibility of the owner to fund the running costs. Anyone who enters into a Kleeneze franchise and does not grasp the concept of being a self sufficient business owner is doomed to failure. As I said before it's like starting a taxi business buying the car and when it runs out of petrol saying " What a con I bought this taxi and filled it up with petrol the petrol has all gone and they expect me to buy more petrol ?" I am quitting

Kleeneze subsidise the catalogues they also award a new business owner with free catalogues if the achieve a very realistic target in their first 4 weeks to help them. They get a 14 day guarantee of a refund if after 14bdays they are not happy, and if they have atended a major training they get a voucher that gives them a £50 cash dredit of their first order over £100. A new starter also gets 1 month free use of the online office, 3 months free use of a dedicated telephone messaging service, ther first order is delivered free of charge and for the first month all delivery charges are heavily discounted. Kleeneze bend over backwards to make certain that the new franchise owner has the best start possible. I would not expect you to know any of this so I dont blame you for your inacurate perceptions of our business.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Pace — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:40:24 GMT

[quote][b]Ernie (25/06/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Tim Pace (24/06/2009)[/b][hr]An opt-out scheme would benefit consumers AND catalogue agents. It would also improve the image of catalogue companies and remove the need for threads like this (and the many similar others that can be found on the Internet).

it may benifit the 25% of people who do not look at the book it would mot benifit the 75% of people who do look at it.[/quote]

Are you seriously trying to say that you think 75% of the unsolicited catalogues stuffed through doors are actually read! :D[/quote]

NO I am stating that I know for certain that 75% of them are read. This is a 100% fact. The reason I know this is we have to log the response we get from every single house we drop a catalogue to. Or our system would not work how else wouls we be able to monitor who is looking at the books or not. The catalogue pack is packed in souch a way that we can examin the book on the doorstep and record if it has been looked at or not. Now I accept that we may get one or two wrong but I would say that we are about 98% certain on this 75% figure.

We have round cards we record the responses for all 6 visits marking a looker with a "l" an no looker with "NL" or a buyer with "B" after the sixth visit all but the "B" houses are removed.

So YES I am very seriously saying that 75% of the books are read. Well in my business anyway. You do not do it full time for a living... I do so you will have to trust me on this one.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ernie — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 10:34:32 GMT

[quote][b]Tim Pace (24/06/2009)[/b][hr]An opt-out scheme would benefit consumers AND catalogue agents. It would also improve the image of catalogue companies and remove the need for threads like this (and the many similar others that can be found on the Internet).

it may benifit the 25% of people who do not look at the book it would mot benifit the 75% of people who do look at it.[/quote]

Are you seriously trying to say that you think 75% of the unsolicited catalogues stuffed through doors are actually read! :D

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ernie — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 10:25:26 GMT

[quote][b]Tim Pace (24/06/2009)[/b][hr]

Which of these facts do you dispute?

1. New Kleeneze agents are often recruited into Kleenze with unrealistic promises of "Financial Freedom"

Incorrect

2. The majority of new agents quit shortly after joining and are not refunded their start up costs.

Incorrect new agents can obtain a refund up to 14 days after joining of their start up fee

80% of all new businesses in the UK fail within the first 12 months. To expect Kleeneze to be any different is nieve to say the least.

[/quote]

1. No that fact is correct. Note I said OFTEN not ALWAYS. You only have to look at that last Kleeneze website I posted and the thousands like it to know that that is true

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Pace — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:53:40 GMT

[quote][b]Ernie (24/06/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Tim Pace (24/06/2009)[/b][hr]I will ignore this insipid reply and insult.[/quote]

I am by no means upset. I honestly believe to the foundation of my soul that it is. Just because YOU don't believe it does not mean that it is not true.

http://www.eze-europe.com

How "moral" is it to give totally such unrealistic expectations to people who then waste money they can ill afford to lose to join Kleeneze?

see below. BTW we recently had a distributor sell his dog to join he was so desperate. He earned £700 last month his expectation was £300. I find that very moral indeed and the card he sent me thanking me for my help was delightful.His results were more than double his expectations.

If you go back to the very first post that I made to start this thread you will see that the only reason I hate Kleeneze is that I cannot permanently request to be removed from a "distribution list" and therefore opt-out of unsolicited catalogues in the same way that I can opt out of unsolicited mail and unsolicited telephone calls.

There is NO distribution list, simply put up a sign "no catalogues please" I am certain you would. The dsa have worked with the DTIso our business model is acceptable. Accept it or dont it's up to you.

An opt-out scheme would benefit consumers AND catalogue agents. It would also improve the image of catalogue companies and remove the need for threads like this (and the many similar others that can be found on the Internet).

it may benifit the 25% of people who do not look at the book it would mot benifit the 75% of people who do look at it. The problem is there is too much money made from direct mailing by the post office, and the Government is very reluctant to implement such a scheme. As for it benifiting agents it would not as our system is we drop a catalogue on a 4 weekly cycle to all houses regardless of if the look at it or buy from it. After 4 drops we remove all the no lookers, then after 6 drops (about 6 months) we remove all but the buyers. You would be amazed at the amount of people who don't buy or even look untill about the 4th or 5th drop. They then go on to be good regular customers. After this initial 6 drops we are in customer base heaven we are only dropping to people who buy. We simply drive around to customers picking up orders and delivering products, some of the friendships we have built up with our customers are quite touching. We get Christmas cards and 2 of them even visited me in hospital when I was ill.
[/quote]

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Pace — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:44:15 GMT

[quote][b]Ernie (24/06/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Tim Pace (24/06/2009)[/b][hr] incorrect unfactual self opinion [/quote]

Which of these facts do you dispute?

The majority of houses in the UK that have Kleeneze catalogues stuffed through them result in no orders.

Correct 1 in 10 people buy on a new round the average is £1 per book on a customer base round nearly everyone will buy and the takings will be an average of £7 per book, however around 75% of the people look at the book on a regular basis on the rounds we drop to.

By inference from the above the majority of people in the UK do not want your catalogues and are inconvenienced by your wish that they be returned.

The Majority of people just place it on the doorstep as requested. It is the small minority of people who request not to have it left. I have just looked at the figures for last week out of 1000 catalogues 4 people requested to not recieve one again.

You expressly ignore "No Cold Callers" signs.

Yes that is correct, we are NOT cold callers we are catalogue distributors, and as I have said many of my best customers have these notices on their door. I have only ever had 1 person point this out to me in 3 years and I drop 1000 books on average every week. However I never drop a book through any door that specifically requests "No catalogues" becaust that is what I do for a living. And always adhere to this request.

Equivalent products for much that you sell can be found significantly cheaper in stores like Poundland or Wilkinsons.

Yes you are correct, howeve this does not deter people they buy like crazy, I stress buy we do not sell, However there is a large proportion of goods in our catalogue that are exclusive or hard to get in shops. It is there choice to buy or not to buy. In fact some of my customers live within walking distance of poundland and still spend a lot of money with me? ( I don't understand it either)

I will give you an indication of the sales growth of my business this year

Period 1: 46% increase

Period 2: 21% increase

Period 3: 78% increase

Period 4 : 35% Increase

Period 5: 112% Increase

Period 6: 72% Increase

Not one customer spoken to, not one sale made every one of them simply looked at the book filled in an order form and left it on their doorstep.

New Kleeneze agents are often recruited into Kleenze with unrealistic promises of "Financial Freedom"

Incorrect, most kleeneze advertising reads earn an extra £200 to £5000 per month. Although financial freedom is a realistic proposition if it is required. 60% of active Kleeneze distributors earn over £500 per month 30% earn over £1500 per month. The top UK earner earns over £400k pa, there are hundreds of people earning over 10K per month.

If you work then look for someone doing your job at your place of work who has achieved financial freedom if the answer is 0 then at least Kleeneze can point to more than that.

The majority of new agents quit shortly after joining and are not refunded their start up costs.

Incorrect new agents can obtain a refund up to 14 days after joining of their start up fee if they dercide it's not for them. After 12 months they get a refund anyway if their account has been kept in good order. Having said that about 80% of all new businesses in the UK fail within the first 12 months. To expect Kleeneze to be any different is nieve to say the least.

[/quote]

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ernie — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:50:42 GMT

[quote][b]Tim Pace (24/06/2009)[/b][hr]I will ignore this insipid reply and insult.[/quote]

You may have got upset by my harsh reaction to your claim that "it's the most moral way to earn a living" but I found it incredulous because I am fed up with adverts like these that are sending a constant stream of new Kleeneze agents to my door:

http://www.eze-europe.com

How "moral" is it to give totally such unrealistic expectations to people who then waste money they can ill afford to lose to join Kleeneze?

If you go back to the very first post that I made to start this thread you will see that the only reason I hate Kleeneze is that I cannot permanently request to be removed from a "distribution list" and therefore opt-out of unsolicited catalogues in the same way that I can opt out of unsolicited mail and unsolicited telephone calls.

An opt-out scheme would benefit consumers AND catalogue agents. It would also improve the image of catalogue companies and remove the need for threads like this (and the many similar others that can be found on the Internet).

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ernie — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:30:23 GMT

[quote][b]Tim Pace (24/06/2009)[/b][hr] incorrect unfactual self opinion [/quote]

Which of these facts do you dispute?

The majority of houses in the UK that have Kleeneze catalogues stuffed through them result in no orders.
By inference from the above the majority of people in the UK do not want your catalogues and are inconvenienced by your wish that they be returned.
You expressly ignore "No Cold Callers" signs.
Equivalent products for much that you sell can be found significantly cheaper in stores like Poundland or Wilkinsons.
New Kleeneze agents are often recruited into Kleenze with unrealistic promises of "Financial Freedom"
The majority of new agents quit shortly after joining and are not refunded their start up costs.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Pace — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:57:32 GMT

[quote][b]Ernie (24/06/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Tim Pace (24/06/2009)[/b][hr]

Put simply it's the most moral way of earning a living I have ever found.[/quote]

Moral! How can you call it Moral?!

You assume that everybody wants your catalogues causing the vast majority that don't want them inconvenience along the way.

You go against people wishes and ignore signs that clearly state cold callers are unwelcome because "that's how you find your customers"

When you eventually find these customers (as your last post demonstrates) they are often old, sick or infirm.

You then proceed to sell these vulnerable people overpriced junk that could be bought much cheaper in the likes of Wilkinsons or Pound shops.

You then sell the 'Kleeneze Dream' to other vulnerable people on the basis that they will achieve "Financial Freedom" if they follow the "Five Year Plan" etc.

Of course "Financial Freedom" is totaly unachievable for the vast majority of people who start Kleeneze so they just end up wasting their money on starter kits and new catalogues before quitting and going back to square one (except of course they are now worse off).

If that's the most moral way of living you have ever found I hate to think what you last job was! - Pimp?, People Trafficker?, Drug Dealer?

ps "You" = Kleeneze as a company and it's agents in general[/quote]

I will ignore this insipid reply and insult. it is nothing other than childish and uneducated. If you cannot speak in an adult way when your incorrect unfactual self opinion is challengeg. I will not waste my time with you.

Your insults are offensive sir. I have no idea how old you are or of what educational standard. But you are making yourself look like a fool. Grow up.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ernie — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:44:48 GMT

[quote][b]Tim Pace (24/06/2009)[/b][hr]

Put simply it's the most moral way of earning a living I have ever found.[/quote]

Moral! How can you call it Moral?!

You assume that everybody wants your catalogues causing the vast majority that don't want them inconvenience along the way.

You go against people wishes and ignore signs that clearly state cold callers are unwelcome because "that's how you find your customers"

When you eventually find these customers (as your last post demonstrates) they are often old, sick or infirm.

You then proceed to sell these vulnerable people overpriced junk that could be bought much cheaper in the likes of Wilkinsons or Pound shops.

You then sell the 'Kleeneze Dream' to other vulnerable people on the basis that they will achieve "Financial Freedom" if they follow the "Five Year Plan" etc.

If that's the most moral way of living you have ever found I hate to think what you last job was! - Pimp?, People Trafficker?, Drug Dealer?

ps "You" = Kleeneze as a company and it's agents in general

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Pace — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:51:16 GMT

[quote][b]Ernie (22/06/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Tim Pace (21/06/2009)[/b][hr]

If you do not want to do this it's your prerogative to throw it in the bin. We accept that this will happen and it's built into our business plan[/quote]

Of course it's "built into your business plan" - you make the poor new starters pay for the catalogues! They are taking all the risk for you![/quote]

? I meant my own personal retailing business plan my retail business is nothing to do with any of my teams we are all "independent business owners" I only lose about 40 books a month. I have built this into my own "business plan" I take my risks my team take their own. YOu must understand this basic principal. In every way we are all dependant. No one is taking a risk for me at all. They earn more money than I do from their business and always will.

Example

I Have a team member I have taught to earn £1500 per month from his business last month. Kleeneze paid me £250 last month for his turn over.

I have a new starter who last month earned £350 she paid £150 for her books How is she taking a risk for me. BTW she earned £200 net Kleeneze paid me £80 for her turnover. So even a brand new distributor at the lowest level in my tea, earns more than me out of her business than I do.

I have yet to come across a job where this is possible.

Put simply it's the most moral way of earning a living I have ever found.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Pace — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:05:09 GMT

NO because it would undermint the principals and it would not be fair on the distributor it would be like your local cash & carry opening up it's doors to the general public and undermining the local shops that buy from them.

Catalogue purchasing ( not just through Kleeneze) is growing in the UK and retailing is shrinking on a daily basis just check the news every month we get reports of retail sales slipping. Stores are closing down (Woolworths)

Last month Kleeneze sales were year on year up by 35%

Why on earth would they consider changing to shops it's a shrinking business model?

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Pace — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:00:28 GMT

I will attempt to reply to everyone in this one post.

You are correct financial freedom in Kleeneze can only be achieved by building a large team of people. It gives the working man the same system as any other form of residual income. To achieve financial freedom without living off investment income. Any business owner needs to earn money independent of his own time effort. Just like any boss of a large company can sit on a beach while his employees earn his money for him. Or a garage owner charging £70 per hr for his mechanics labour but only paying his mechanic £10 per hr wages.

However the highest earner in kleeneze with NO team earns around £40k per year just from his own retailing I personally know 1 guy earning £3000 per month with no team at all. I earn £1000 per month from retailing the rest is paid to me by Kleeneze based on the turnover of my team. You are correct in theory if everyone in the country joined the system would not work so in theory saturation could kill it. However with only 11,000 distributors in a country of 60 million people it's very unlikley. Recruiting distributors is not easy. In our team we have new joiners every month we also have people who quit..even die. We also have new people reaching the age of 18(the legal start age for Kleeneze) joining. So Saturation is highly unlikley but it is possible. Kleeneze is 87 years old a very respected business opportunity,

One of the most common objections to Network Marketing companies is the pyramid argument. Many people will argue that Network Marketing companies are 'pyramid schemes' but that is not usually the case. If it is, they will be closed down fairly quickly. PYRAMID SELLING IS ILLEGAL IN THE UK

There is a big difference between 'pyramid structure' and 'pyramid scheme'. Almost every business has a pyramid structure. If you look at a typical corporate organization chart, you will see one person at the top, a few underneath that person, and then it fans out into... a pyramid. Even if you look at a sales organization, you'll see that senior sales people get commission overrides from the people underneath them. That sounds like a downline structure in Network Marketing.

A Pyramid Scheme on the other hand is illegal. It is where all the money is being made from signing up other people, with little or no real product ever being sold or delivered. Some will argue that that certain MLMs border on this. The business emphasis on many MLMs is so heavily placed on the opportunity that the product seems unimportant. Or it's difficult to buy the product without hearing about the opportunity.

Legitimate Network Marketing companies will focus on significant product movement along with selling the opportunity. That's a balancing act, and those that cross that line to 'scheme' will likely have authorities to deal with.

You are entitled to you opinion on this however you are wrong Kleenze would be shut down by the DTI and DSA if it were an illegal pyramid.

On to the catalogues Kleeneze is a business not a job a kleeneze catalogue works out to around 67p to the distributor the cost of producing it however is higher. The catalogues are "subsidised" The catalogue is our business it's like starting a taxi firm. You have to purchase fuel. The catalogue is our fuel. Even a self employed window cleaner has to buy a bucket and a leather.

In your lifetime you may not have heard anyone claim to love our catalogue, I believe you I had not until I started to do it for a living. Why should you. However as I do it for a living I am certain you are intelligent enough to realist that I know a little more than you on this subject. People do love it. Every week we get letters from Kleeneze informing us of people who live near to us who have requested a catalogue.

However. I will give you an example this week we dropped a catalogue to a new house(for us) the catalogue was on the door with an order for £97 the resident came to the door and called me back. I noticed he was on stocks and not walking too good.

He said

" I am so pleased you have called I have recently moved in and my old distributor lives too far away to serve me. I love Kleeneze products and as you can see I am disabled. Please don't forget to add me to you round and drop a book every time you are in the street"

You all must remember not everyone thinks alike about many things in this world, people get annoyed about one thing (like a Kleeneze catalogue) others love it.

Recently I had a distributor pay off the arrears on his home and stop repossession as a direct result of joining our team and starting his Kleeneze business. Why on earth would anyone not think that in todays terrible economic climate than any good news or growing business is worth more than the personal inconvienciece of the 5 seconds it takes to put on a step an unwanted Kleeneze catalogue.

Lets get this issue into perspective shall we.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Task17 — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:38:29 GMT

And another thing.

If what kleeneze sells is so good, why haven't they got a really cool website where you can buy it direct? Is it because like Ernie says, loosing catalogues is part of their business model, where they count on it to generate more income?

And like andyh says above, why don't kleeneze sell through Tesco or Homebase etc where they could cut down on their distribution costs and make their products available on a truly nationwide basis? Wouldn't this be a win-win for every one, but without the grief of catalogues?

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Task17 — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:28:16 GMT

In all my years of living on this planet I have never heard ANYONE say " I love that Kleeneze catalogue, I just can't wait for the next one!"

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ernie — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:31:32 GMT

[quote][b]Tim Pace (21/06/2009)[/b][hr]

If you do not want to do this it's your prerogative to throw it in the bin. We accept that this will happen and it's built into our business plan[/quote]

Of course it's "built into your business plan" - you make the poor new starters pay for the catalogues! They are taking all the risk for you!

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ernie — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:26:23 GMT

[quote][b]Tim Pace (22/06/2009)[/b][hr]

KLEENEZE

JOHN GARY

at the end of the month I am paid by Kleeneze(not John or Gary) a bonus based on the turnover of my team

So to sum up people can build massive teams of self employed business owners

[/quote]

In other words, in order to achieve the "Financial Independence" that people promoting Kleeneze are always refereing to, you need to build a decent sized team.

So if 'John' and 'Gary' in you diagram (that incidentally looks remarkably like the top of a pyramid) want to succeed they too must build teams. And their teams will want to build teams. etc. etc

As with pyramid schemes there are simply not the number of people in the population to support this through many generations so the majority at the bottom will simply fail and give up only to be replaced by others who are 'sold the dream'.

It is this high turnover of new recruits that are annoying to the majority of people who DON'T want your catalogues.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Pace — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 06:24:17 GMT

NO there is not 1 middleman in the diagram above

in the example below John is a middleman

Company---JOHN----customer

John is a retailer he is a middleman he buys products from a company and applies a mark up often people refer to going direct to the company and cutting out the middleman. To save money

In the diagram below lets assume John and Gary are in Kleeneze and In my team

KLEENEZE

JOHN GARY

John and Gary do NOT buy products from me they buy them directly from Kleeneze they pay exactly the same price as I do there is NO mark up between me and my distributors. There is NO middle man. Thi applies regardless of the number in my team.

I make 21% profit on my own sales. John & Gary also make 21% profit on theor own sales. I make not 1p out of John or Gary directly. They pay me nothing

However at the end of the month I am paid by Kleeneze(not John or Gary) a bonus based on the turnover of my team. Now this business model is network marketing NOT pyramid selling. Pyramid selling is illegal in the UK network marketing is not. In pyramid selling a mark up occurs ant each stage of the product transfer so there are indeed many middlemen so consequently at the bottom of the pyramid the goods get so expensive they are unsalable.

Pyramid schemes often pay a "finders fee" for recruiting more "suckers" paying an incentive for getting people to join a network marketing business is Illegal in the UK. This has to be stated by law you will find it on Kleeneze literature.

So to sum up people can build massive teams of self employed business owners, they all deal direct with Kleeneze, THERE ARE NO MIDDLEMEN they all pay the same price for their stock. No one pays up front for it and everyone gets a £500 credit account. Everyone can return goods and get a credit so no one gets ripped off. Every one pays the same price for their goods. no one makes any money from anothers business. All bonuses are paid direct by Kleeneze to the distributor based on the sales of their team. It is posible in my example above for John and Gary to earn more money than me. I earn more than my sponsor. I have never found a job that allows anyone to earn more than the Boss ?

These are the facts. However as ever don't let them get in the way of your opinion after all what do I Know ? I only do it for a living full time.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Pace — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 09:01:24 GMT

I read with interest the many posts regarding this subject. Firstly I was a Kleeneze customer for years I have always found the products to be good and the concept has always amazed me, I always looked forward to getting a catalogue through my door and always purchased. About 2 years ago I decided to give it a go myself and so I went my wife was not too keen however when in my first month I earned £400 for 10rs a week her opinion soon changed. After about 9 months working part time we had a business paying £1300 every 4 weeks, Last November my "proper business" folded and we decided to go full time. wE now turn over around £20,000 every 4 weeks and earn around £30k pa. We earn a lot more money than the person we joined through (our distributor).One of the misconceptions regarding Kleeneze is it is that you are exploited. How have I been exploited when I earn more money than my sponsor ?

Along the way in 2 years we have removed 2 people from unemployment benefit, we have taught single moms to earn over £1000 every 4 weeks and removed them from income support. Every member of our team earns more out of their business than we do on a an individual basis. This year so far we have 2 team members who have been made redundant from full time jobs and have NOT signed on they did not have to they simple went full time in their already succesfull part time Kleeneze business. 60% of all active agents earn £500+ every 4 weeks 30% earn £1500+ every 4 weeks

On to the catalogues. Kleeneze is an established British company turning over £120,000,000+ every year it is 87 years old and has never made a loss. Every "agent" is self employed and has tier own customers we also have no allocated areas. Kleeneze haver no idea where the customers live as they haver NO customers only agents.

Most Kleeneze customers love the catalogue, it may not be for you but you must realize that thousands and thousands of people love it. If we are late they call us and ask why we have not been. Every day loads of people call Kleeneze and request a catalogue.

Calling Kleeneze will NOT stop catalogues they dont know who delivers to you, asking not to recieve a catalogue will not stop other distributors delivering catalogues as areas are not "passed on" there are often 4 or more different distributors working is any one street. The only answer is to put a sign up requesting NO catalogues.

If you do not want to do this it's your prerogative to throw it in the bin. We accept that this will happen and it's buit into our business plan The vast majority of people in the UK do not do this. The DSA ( direct selling Association) is the body that governs our industry and strict rules are laid down.

Kleeneze is NOT considered door to door selling and consequently is allowed to operate unhindered. It never will be banned as long as there are letterboxes there will be a Kleeneze catalogue dropped through it. It is a British institution look at this link from the BBC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ngp4cq4YsM

people who hate us and trow our catalogue away are very much a minority. Kleeneze is a a large UK expanding business.

Something that is rare at the moment and to championed not berated.

Kleeneze is providing incomes and saving YOU the taxpayer money here is the proof of that. Keeping people off benefits and bucking the economic downturn, here is another link this one from the TV news to back this up

http://www.kleeneze.co.uk/itvnews/index.htm

I hope this has helped. You are all entitled to you opinion even if you choose not to let the facts get in the way.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Borat — Sat, 06 Jun 2009 16:37:39 GMT

Borat has quiz for you

what is common shape in these two pictures

a - camel

b - pyramid

answers on postard pleaze

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Borat — Sat, 06 Jun 2009 16:21:54 GMT

I am confuzed.

Kleeneze man say he cuts out middlemen but he has this on his kleeneze.org website

Borat not that clever but even he can see lots of middlemen in this picture.

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AndyH — Fri, 29 May 2009 08:52:52 GMT

Cut out the middle men?? The whole scheme that you operate under is laden with middle men who all rely on the lowest level to boost their income. Surely manufacturer to merchant (sometimes via a wholesaler) is the easiest way to sell? If your way is so good why is it a minority business model?

And again I will pose the question, if the goods are so fantastic why are they not sold in normal shops? Places like Robert Dyas, Sainsburys, Tesco etc. would be jumping through hoops to get their hands on such easy to sell products. And for kleeneze would it not be much easier just to have a contract where they could supply their products in massive bulk orders?

As for the advertising on toilet doors. Yes there may already be adverts placed there, but these have been PAID for by a company. What gives you the right to slap your advertising literature on top of their space that they have paid for?

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

skyhigh23 — Fri, 29 May 2009 01:06:20 GMT

[quote]If kleeneze products are so good, why don't they open shops?[/quote]

because they cut out the middle men which is how the distributors get paid so well... if you were to have a shop you'd then be adding more people to be paid... like staff... sales reps not to mention rents rates and overheads...

if you were to open even one shop that sold everything in the kleeneze catalogue it would cost billions because you wouldn't just order one of everything would you otherwise once someone came in to buy it.. there would be no more... actually before i type any more and get frustrated i'll stop because to be honest i don't know why im even explaining myself to you... you quite clearly just don't get it

p.s about the advertising on back of toilet doors or service stations... most toilets have some sort of advertisement on the back of the door... so whats the difference in sticking your own advertisement in framework of the advert already screwed onto back of door? doesn't matter where it is.. someones going to see it..? even if its the cleaner...

RE: Kleeneze, Betterware etc AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AndyH — Thu, 28 May 2009 11:40:48 GMT

[quote][b]skyhigh23 (24/05/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]AndyH (28/08/2006)[/b][hr]How desperate can these people get? I recently found a business card for a "home catalogue delivery opportunity" stuck to the back of a toilet door in Pease Pottage Services. Surely this must be utter desperation for people to stoop so low in the quest to recruit a new "agent". The business in question was I think the one begining with "K", they didn't give the name on the card but a bit of investigation on the internet has linked the phone number to them. Where will these people look to next for "business" (OK, cheap toilet joke!):)[/quote]

All i can say is THAT ADVERTISEMENT obviously worked because you checked it out !!!![/quote]

If you think that advertising on the back of a public toilet door is a good representation of your business, then I will leave it up to you to work out how the general public perceive you.

When I posted this it was to highlight the how low one agent was prepared to go to try to get business. Firstly posting his card on the back of a toilet door, and secondly on private property at a service station. How good does this make your wonderful business look??

If kleeneze products are so good, why don't they open shops?